Proof of the non existence of God part 2
A number of people have responded to my proof, one of the arguments is as follows: "God is not limited to the same parameters that creation is confined to. For one, He is omnipresent, meaning He is everywhere at all times" and another response was" A big problem with this argument is that Allah (the creator of everything) does not in any way assume the shape or form of HIS (Allah's) creation. This means that Allah is not inside HIS (Allah's) own creation. How can somebody who creates something be in the realm of his own creation? "
The main arguments seem to be that God would not be part of or be inside God's own creation and that if God made the rules then surely God must be able to break the rules. These are both good points to make and at first seem to disprove my theory. However they make the assumption that God created the universe.
The next logical step therefore is to prove that God did not create everything:
For God to be the creator and originator of everything that exists, God must have created everything out of nothing (i.e. nothing existed before). By definition this would mean that nothing would have to exist. But if nothing existed then God also would not exist.
The main arguments seem to be that God would not be part of or be inside God's own creation and that if God made the rules then surely God must be able to break the rules. These are both good points to make and at first seem to disprove my theory. However they make the assumption that God created the universe.
The next logical step therefore is to prove that God did not create everything:
For God to be the creator and originator of everything that exists, God must have created everything out of nothing (i.e. nothing existed before). By definition this would mean that nothing would have to exist. But if nothing existed then God also would not exist.
posted by David at 4:14 am
12 Comments:
but if God did not create himself (which he couldn't have done) then it is false that God created everything.
The prior arguments seem to overlook the issue of first cause. We know that at some point there was a first cause, that cannot be disputed because if there were no first cause, we would not be having this discussion.
If you find a watch in a field you know by examining its design that there is a complexity in it, but looking at the surroundings you cannot deduce how it came to be. So you have to either conclude that it evolved over time or it had an intelligent designer.
If you take any example of from the sciences you will be faced with the same choice. Either there is an intelligent designer that is the first cause or there is some other force that is the first cause.
Actually the issue of a first cause can be disputed, is it not possible that there was an infinite number of creators/causes each one creating the next creator/cause. This idea is just as possible as the idea that the original creator had existed forever before creating everything.
Also there is slight problem with the watchmaker argument, after finding the watch lets say that your assumption that because the watch is so complex it must have a creator/designer is true. Now we get to the problem: the watchmaker is also complex (more so than the watch) so using your argument the watchmaker therefore must also have a creator. So who created the watch maker, and who created the person/thing that created the watch maker? And so on ... until we get an infinite number of creators.
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What if nothingness itself was a state of being?
Nothingness can't exist without something realising the nothing.
Same way, nothing can come out of nothing. So if God can't be from nothing (or vice versa), so can't matter.
Then again...what is God?
Ok I don't know about allah, but the God of the Bible is outside of His creation. I have a question, if God deos not exist where did time come from? Time could not have always existed otherwise there would be eternity before us and we would have never gotten to this point in time. The first words of the Bible, "In the beginning," refer to the beginning of time itself; which God created.
"if God deos not exist where did time come from? Time could not have always existed otherwise there would be eternity before us and we would have never gotten to this point in time."
Time is linked to space, as in space-time, you can't have one without the other in this universe. An object is said to be located at point A in space and at point B in time.
Time (as we know it) was created at the exact same point as space after the big bang. Before the big bang all the traditional rules of the universe (Einstein’s general relativity) breakdown and we can no long predict what happens. At this point we must use quantum mechanics to explore the universe pre big bang. Using general relativity it appears that the state of the universe before the big bang is a singularity ie, infinitely small and infinite time
"it appears that the state of the universe before the big bang is a singularity ie, infinitely small and infinite time"
Yes, that is the point i was making; you are begging the question. Time, as we know it, is infinite. It can be sped up and slown down, but it can never go in reverse or be slown to the point of zero. So, if time is infinite, how did we get to this point in time? We couldn't have, it is mathamaticaly impossible. There had to be a beginning, as I said in my previous comment.
On your place I would ask the help for users of this forum.
There are lots of things on this blog that need to be cleared up. And I will do so in the best of my ways. Please point out if you find any problems by posting. And please, read my whole post if you wish to comment. There will be things that are not addressed until later, which could spike an unnecessary debate.
First, to understand this we need to understand time. General Relativity tells us that the universe and time needed to have a beginning. Brewer had the right idea. Time is not infinite. It is like a ray in geometry. It has a definite start, and then proceeds forward in one direction indefinitely.
General Relativity, and common logic, then tells us that some personage had to get the ball rolling. Something had to start time. The God of the Bible is that thing. SEVERAL times during the Bible(which was written until the first century when we didn't know much about time) we are told that God created time, and the universe. These passages (which I am too lazy to point out) also tell us that the entity that began the universe is also not confined by time and is not a part of the universe we know. General Relativity also tells us this. In summary, God is not confined by time or the universe.
Because of this, the nothing that you tell us of is irrelevant, because God is not a part of the ray that we are confined to. The nothing refers to our ray. Not God's line, which is infinite.
I also noticed that someone pulled the "If God created everything, then what created God?" Silly, silly. Logic and GR tell us that the creator, God, wouldn't need to be created, because He is already the creator. Like I said, God is not confined to our rules, and is the line that is eternal. Because of this, God doesn't need a creator because He was already there in the first place.
Then there is the watch problem. Any scientist will tell you that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but it can change forms. No, this isn't disproving creation. As I said, God is not confined by our rules and can create. He can make something out of nothing, which is creation. However, we cannot do so. The watchmaker DID NOT create the watch. He arranged the changed forms of simple ores know as gears into something new. The simple ores were created. The gears were not. The watch was not. The man was to some extent, but that does not in any way make infinite creators.
Then there is the creation event, which is often misunderstood. If you read Genesis 1:1, we are told that God created the heavens and the earth. He created everything. If you think about it, the Big Bang is a logical way to get it started. There is nothing, and suddenly, there is something. God was the one who made the bang.
That is all I feel like saying now. Info dump, I know. Again, if you have problems, PLEASE post them.
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